Curse

Uppen Arsenal · Nov 21, 2005, 03:26 PM // 15:26

so what u gonna do with all ur easy earned cash when theres nothing left to buy? or when u decide the games boring u

dreamex2 · Nov 21, 2005, 03:32 PM // 15:32

@talon.

You don't want to ask me that

I'm the one who pays exhorbitant amounts for convenience. Most of the wealth I have was amassed in PvP through sigils/gold items from HoH. I once paid 20k for a run to Droknar's if the runner could do it in less than 15 minutes

He didn't quite reach that mark but I gave him the gold anyways.

From a non-biased standpoint however, I can see your point. The general public would be willing to wait a little longer, risk a few failures for a good spawn, and then take the run at a cheaper price. But you must understand that there are people like me (idiots who have nothing to do with their money

) and people worse than me (idiots who have nothing to do but ebay their money

) that will pay a higher price for convenience.

I do not doubt that you could make the Ascalon->Sanctum run, nor do I doubt that you could make it in an efficient and swift manner. But unless I've been run by you before, I'd probably feel a little more secure in the speed offered by a known source. The prices that the LBSRA charges are higher than I would charge if I was an individual runner. But they are not higher than a price I would be willing to pay if I was seeking a runner.

There are definately others like me, it comes with the recognized name, just like how you might prefer to have your car serviced at a Midus centre opposed to Greasy Al's Garage right? Like I said, I always run for free unless it's an extensive run (world tour>.<) or it's a full party run and I stand to make more than 20k in the run. Many other LBSRA members do the same for people who may be old customers or just generally their friends.

I guess the best comparison is about service and quality as well as guaranteed speed. You would not hire someone without seeing a resume... the LBSRA certification is sort of like a mini resume.

Thanks for your time again, I'm glad this is a fair conversation and it hasn't quite degenerated into flames yet. I would be happy to answer/debate other questions you might have.

capitalist · Nov 21, 2005, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by talon

Most of what you said I agree to, but why would you spend the extra cash when other people can run you for so much less? The prices for LA to Ascension are ridiculous, as are most of the other ones. The only run I can't do consistently is Droknar's and even one of the LBSRA members said the guild are having problems, and have to go with 2 people. I run from Ascalon to Sanctum Cay for 5k. That's it. Always make it, no matter what. Look at your prices, and honestly answer this, from your point of view if you weren't in LBSRA.

Which one would you take?

Ummm...this all comes back to you not wanting to use the service. Yes, you may be able to do it 100% of the time. Good, I am happy that you provide this service. You have to remember that ~80% of all GW players have less than 20k in their account. So you are effectively charging this person 25% of their entire savings account for a short run. My clients are the other 20% of GW players, with close to 1000k in their account. I charge 25k for LA to Sanctum Cay, completing the mission, which is effectively 2.5% of their savings. The defense rests...

Blue Steel · Nov 21, 2005, 04:25 PM // 16:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by capitalist

Ummm...this all comes back to you not wanting to use the service. Yes, you may be able to do it 100% of the time. Good, I am happy that you provide this service. You have to remember that ~80% of all GW players have less than 20k in their account. So you are effectively charging this person 25% of their entire savings account for a short run. My clients are the other 20% of GW players, with close to 1000k in their account. I charge 25k for LA to Sanctum Cay, completing the mission, which is effectively 2.5% of their savings. The defense rests...

Nice closing, Counselor. I find in favor of the defense. Verdict for the defense, case dismissed with prejudice, I'd like to thank the jurors for their civic service. Court is adjourned . . .

trim · Nov 21, 2005, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by dreamex2

@Liquid.

It's probably still available although it would be at a slower speed and may or may not be pricier.

@talon.

I'll be 300% honest with you, I've been in the academy for the weekend and I was able to pass the running test on the second day due largely to my previous running experience. However, that is not to say I didn't learn one or two things that I previously had no idea about, also, it was a window for a lot of 'customers' that got passed on when no one else had the chance to run them. That in itself shows that there's more requests than available LBS runners at most periods of time. Sadly, most of the runs were short (LA->ToA, Ascalon->Beacons etc) and were only for 1 person instead of a party so I did them for free anyways>.>

Another point I'd like to make is the level of consistency and professionalism shown by many of the members of the Academy, they're working very hard to maintain a good image and a great service (mostly 'cause I think they're all jerks on the inside :P). I've said it many times before, you can find a running build anywhere online (hell it's not even hard to come up with one), but that doesn't make you a great runner. For some people, you can learn through trial/error and practice. For others, they need outside teachings to get something. The service isn't necessary for everyone, nor will it benefit everyone, but it's still there for those who need it.

Next to address the issue of value... How can you appraise something so abstract and subjective for everyone without taking into consideration individual cases? Sure, for someone who's already been able to run, 15 ecto seems rather superfluous as an entrance fee for a few connections and tips right? But what about for the person who's never done it before, found a build, has no idea about the maps, has no idea when to use the right skills, and desperately wants some help?

The truth is this, many of the members have earned their tuition back at least 3 times over. That's probably worth it for those members. Someone like me (I prefer to run for free unless it's a party run to somewhere inconvenient), will probably end up not making as much, but it doesn't mean that the knowledge we would gain is not worth anything...

To address the issue of arrogance, well, I can't really... I haven't known them long enough yet. In my limited experience with the Academy, I can tell you that the majority of the members are not running around with fanfare proclaiming how great they are. A lot of the students are inexperienced and seeking guidance and the officers are not rubbing it in that they're better... In regards to the general public and interaction between members and the general public... I don't think they mean to be arrogant... some of them just don't seem to be very articulate

and may come off that way.

@Everyone else.

There is really no reason to criticize something that you have no intentions of using ever. This is a premium service geared towards those who want and/or need it. Just like an exotic car, a hot vacation, an expensive hooker, whatever you want to compare it to.

Thank you for your time.

Don't we get to appeal?

You spent nearly 200k and you already knew how to run. I hope those were some ubeleivable tips. I ought to ask that toast guy about those tips. Didn't he use to be in this guild. If you had an abundance of ectos I would have gladly taken a few off your hands.

Bad thing is I probably would have felt bad from taking the ectos from you.

Our Guild has over 50 members, a web site, and are extremely active. Plus, our guild would never ask for someone to hand out there hard earned gold to learn a few builds or become a member. We have a lot of intelligent people that wouldn't mind giving you some hands on tips to fine tune your skills. You could probably have teamed up with some of our members to do runs for practice.

I don't really see how undercharging could get thrown into the equation when theres good people out there that will give you this info.

Basically running is just common sense. Obviously you need your run skills (Sprint and Charge come to mind). Then you definitly need a skill to keep your energy from burning (Balthazars Spirit would be good if you dont get disenchanted and maybe even Bonnetis). A must would be another couple of skills to reduce the damage you would encounter (Mending, Endure Pain and other Protection skills might work well here). One of the most important ones for droks would have to be a skill that keeps you from getting knocked down by all the damn wurms, tundra giants, and those black things that always appear out of know where in snake dance (without Balanced Stance no one would stand a chance). Plus a good shield, such as Malinons for enchantments, Grognars Defender I beleive for Stances, and even the collectors one outside of camp rankor will work well in a lot of areas where you get hexed. If locating all the skills needed was the part baffling you all you would have to do is find all the skill listings and locations of all the skills on this very forum. Get the skills and put them to the test.

Give it some good practice and play with your attributes a little and anyone can figure out an effective build. I think the more a person practices on his own the better feel he will get for the whole process. Having someone next to you telling you what your not doing and what you need to be doing would be kind of confusing to a lot of folks. I know lots of good people that would go out and give ya a hand for free. Maybe you would have to dance naked for the guy for awhile (theres a guy in my guild that requires this for any help

) but hes always there to give a helping hand. There are lots of great guilds out there that will give there members some much needed help for a little of nothing. I'm talking about droks runs because to me it always seemed to be one of the more desired runs.

I just wish you'll guys knew how simple it would be for someone to join this guild and steal every little secret it had. Not to mention the old members that would be willing to give your so called great builds away for a little of nothing. Me personally, I have well over 3 mil in gold now on 4 accounts. If I wanted to I could easily pawn you'll off and get into this guild. Pay the fee, get the builds and secrets, and paste them all over these forums. As this is basically the heart and soul of the fee it could possibly ruin your chances of getting a dime. If people had that build sitting in front of them I doubt very seriously they would be compelled to throw out nearly 200k for some help on implementing the skills the right way during the run. As this will come with practice. I wouldn't do it personally but if I had the desire to do it wouldn't be that hard.

On what Capitalist was saying. I have over a mil in gold and if I can save 10k on a run I would definitly do it.

Srry, if this isn't what all you'll LBS members want to see on this thread, but maybe if you looked at the whole picture you could see how others feel. As I'm sure you have by the last few pages of posts I was reading.

dreamex2 · Nov 21, 2005, 06:25 PM // 18:25

@trim.

I had almost the exact same build as LBS when I entered the academy, I finished the Droknar's Run for her (and my graduation) before I was given access on their forums to the handbook. The point isn't about me. I joined the guild because I wanted to be helpful and help their other students, not because I felt like I needed help running. The tips I got weren't ground-breaking nor were they probably worth the 200k (not that I could ever valuate knowledge). However, the sense of being able to help those that do need help get their money's worth is a definite sense of accomplishment.

I think the biggest thing people are missing about the academy is that they think people pay the fee just to get into the guild and read some documentation about a build and some tips about how to run. It's actually much more than that, the Officers and LBS herself regularly invite their students to sit in on practice runs and they offer 1 on 1 teaching to help people learn.

As for the sake of underpriced/overpriced. It's been said before that much of the value of the enrollment fee comes from being taught how to do something hands on, not merely being told in words and left to figure it out on your own. Other people may be able to do examples but they're not running a business meaning they cannot spend all of their time doing examples for people.

You could (well, you could've before this post :P) written an application, got in if it was well written, taken the build/documents/etc and posted them all over the forums. However, you still wouldn't be offering the same type of service that I'm talking about. The Academy is a place of learning and teaching, the Professor doesn't just post up work and expect you to do it on your own. They're very dedicated to taking the necessary steps to ensure their students get the very best knowledge about running.

You're right, to figure out a running build is not hard, all you need is:

1. Something to lose aggro, usually a speed up.
2. Something to prevent knockdown, obviously Balanced Stance
3. Something to heal yourself
4. Something to rid yourself of conditions
5. Something to rid yourself of hexes
6. Survival skills.

You could easily piece together a workable build, probably the same build (like I did pretty much). But some people might need more than just the build to succeed. Some people are hands-on learners. It's been stated before, the academy isn't for everyone, and not everyone who enrolls will get their money's worth. But it's there because some people will.

I hope you understand my points. I'm sorry my post isn't as detailed as yours, I'm typing while eating my lunch

I'm sure they understand how everyone feels, but I don't think a lot of people understand where they're coming from yet. Hopefully we'll be able to clarify everything eventually.

PS. You'll notice I still refer to LBSRA as 'They' and not 'Us,' even though I'm a member, I still feel like I haven't gotten to know them well enough to be able to justify that type of a pronoun use.

Zoolooman · Nov 21, 2005, 07:16 PM // 19:16

Quote:

The only run I can't do consistently is Droknar's and even one of the LBSRA members said the guild are having problems, and have to go with 2 people.

I hope this isn't true. Beacon's to Droknar's is *not* a hard run, even post-patch. A group like LSBRA shouldn't have had any trouble with it.

dreamex2 · Nov 21, 2005, 07:28 PM // 19:28

It's generally easy unless there's a 4wurm + spread Avicara + 2packs of Siege/Soul at the end of the first cave. Many of the non-officers cannot make that type of spawn solo but the better runners have no problems.

killer toast · Nov 21, 2005, 08:09 PM // 20:09

HI everyone

dreamex2 · Nov 21, 2005, 08:28 PM // 20:28

Hi Toast!

capitalist · Nov 21, 2005, 08:30 PM // 20:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by trim

Our Guild has over 50 members, a web site, and are extremely active. Plus, our guild would never ask for someone to hand out there hard earned gold to learn a few builds or become a member. We have a lot of intelligent people that wouldn't mind giving you some hands on tips to fine tune your skills. You could probably have teamed up with some of our members to do runs for practice.

First and foremost the payment is for entrance into the Academy; which exists independent of the Guild. Secondly, The Academy existed before the Guild was established. Lastly, The Guild was established as a central location where Academy members could come to learn from an extended group of people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trim

Then you definitly need a skill to keep your energy from burning (Balthazars Spirit would be good if you dont get disenchanted and maybe even Bonnetis).

Bonetti's? Where will the Adren. come from?

Quote:

Originally Posted by trim

I just wish you'll guys knew how simple it would be for someone to join this guild and steal every little secret it had. Not to mention the old members that would be willing to give your so called great builds away for a little of nothing. Me personally, I have well over 3 mil in gold now on 4 accounts. If I wanted to I could easily pawn you'll off and get into this guild. Pay the fee, get the builds and secrets, and paste them all over these forums. As this is basically the heart and soul of the fee it could possibly ruin your chances of getting a dime. If people had that build sitting in front of them I doubt very seriously they would be compelled to throw out nearly 200k for some help on implementing the skills the right way during the run. As this will come with practice. I wouldn't do it personally but if I had the desire to do it wouldn't be that hard.

Already had someone do that... it's old news... our builds and practices are constantly evolving... etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trim

On what Capitalist was saying. I have over a mil in gold and if I can save 10k on a run I would definitly do it.

I love to save money. But I know that the during the time I wasted on a cheap runner that ends up failing, I could have made another 100k playing/trading.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trim

Srry, if this isn't what all you'll LBS members want to see on this thread, but maybe if you looked at the whole picture you could see how others feel. As I'm sure you have by the last few pages of posts I was reading.

The people that do not like the service need not use it, as I am sure you can see from the last few pages of posts you were reading.

trim · Nov 21, 2005, 08:37 PM // 20:37

umm...dreamer maybe you should go back and read my post. I think I covered amost all your points.

What I think a lot of this amounts to is that there are a couple if not more grown adults running this so called busines/academy

and are basically outwitting the younger individuals who are throwing their lack of wealth at them. If you haven't realized 15 ectoplasm is a small fortune to a lot of us. As I am one of these poorer individuals and that first post does seem to try to pull you in quite well. I can easily see how newer people to the game would get trapped into beleiving that this is some service that can't be self taught or taught by a kind individual for a little of nothing. We know for a fact the leader of this guild is a lawyer *rolls eyes*

(as I have seen this posted by him at least 3 times already) so we know there isn't anyone lacking enough intellegince to create a guild (/academy as i am getting rather tired hearing this term also) to outwit people and wreap the benefits of anyone who decides to go along with there so called school. Sorry, but I didn't buy guild wars to go back to school. I would rather talk and be taught by a good friend or just research the build myself which from my knowledge isn't extremely difficult.

But Wait, i'm sure it wont be too long as another lbs member has to reply to my post and say that I am completly wrong. But I think many people are beginning to realize that there are a lot of people in disagreement with this, and that there are tons of alternative running packages and great people out there that will be willing to teach you a rather common build for nothing.

killer toast · Nov 21, 2005, 08:39 PM // 20:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by capitalist

I love to save money. But I know that the during the time I wasted on a cheap runner that ends up failing, I could have made another 100k playing/trading.

Amen capitalist

capitalist · Nov 21, 2005, 08:44 PM // 20:44

Trim = Socialist
Capitalist = Capitalist

Hollatcha boy Toast!

dreamex2 · Nov 21, 2005, 08:51 PM // 20:51

@trim.

I don't read anything dealing with the enrollment being more about the degree of hands-on teaching that you get from dedicated members in the academy in your posts... which was what my argument was largely based on.

Players who enroll get very specialized tutelage and are walked through all the processes by experienced players. Most guilds are willing to help, but they're not going to devote a majority of their time to teaching every new recruit.

Capitalist is right though, the business model behind the academy is targetting a capitalist society.

>.>

trim · Nov 21, 2005, 09:11 PM // 21:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by trim

As I am one of these poorer individuals and that first post does seem to try to pull you in quite well.

Srry for my typo.

My points stand. There are some flaws in your so called academy as i view it. I'ts my opinon yes, but a lot of people share my view. I just think what your doing is absolutly wrong, but hey if you want to take a new guys wealth so be it.

killer toast · Nov 21, 2005, 09:17 PM // 21:17

if your new i doubt you have 15 ectos laying around -.- we spend money like we want it hell at first i laughed at my guildes for paying 15 ectos for lbs thingy. then i joined and im glad i payed those 15 ectos because they dont just give you lessons in running but they become your friends and money cant buy friends

and i want to give a shout out to happycakes yo yo yo

dreamex2 · Nov 21, 2005, 09:20 PM // 21:20

@trim.

You're most definately entitled to your opinion, although you haven't exactly provided solid (or new) claims on why what they're doing is wrong. The recurring theme seems to be:

It's wrong because the information can be found online for free. Or other people may be willing to teach you something for free.

The response is:

While both are very true, both time and convenience are a factor that can be priced accordingly.

This is the only service offered right now that gives the consumer fast and full instruction over a very broad time-frame. There's an officer online almost always and there's many graduates/officers online during peak hours that are ready to teach/help.

Free services may or may not offer that in the same quality as this Academy does.

The second recurring argument is:

You guys charge so much more than the average runner for these runs.

The response is:

As Capitalist stated, their prices are directed towards those who can afford it and want a reliable service. The target consumer isn't the common public, it's the wealthy elite, so what's wrong with that?

Edit: Toast, I'll be your friend for some money

ABX 213 · Nov 21, 2005, 10:14 PM // 22:14

do you guys offer the spider service? if you do how much you charge?

General Surena · Nov 21, 2005, 11:15 PM // 23:15

10/10 Sundering on the Longsword - You just lost all your creditability

Seriously, why care if some virtual community offers a service you are unable to join? It strikes me how people tend to lose emotions over it while being member of this Academy and some virtual popularity offers no single advantage on your career, monthly bill, sexual life etc....

Oh wait, I might be posting at the totally wrong place. My bad.